Are LLYs really a PITA to tune??

[Crazy_Steve]

Does this comment i saw on dp have any merit?

Are LBZ's really that far superior to the LLY's?


"I like LLY's more than LBZ's" by KEVINL

"WHY?????? LLY's have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. There are hardly any LLY's making big power. The ECM's suck and are a PITA to tune around the dozens of defueling tables they have, among other issues." by duratothemax

What do you guys think about this?

Any way to overcome these defueling tables in the ECM?

Is it even possible to put a LBZ ecm in an LLY?

[KEVINL]

Jneal and Othrgrl are making big power on LLY's I also think Tony Burkhards truck is a LLY

Casper is a LLY


I think Ben is full of $hit

I have never tried to tune a LLY but there are obviously some people that can do it with success

You can not use a LBZ ECM without changing the wiring harness

[OTHRGRL]

I don't at all think that an LLY is a pain to tune. Within 2 days of having my truck running I put down 821hp on very rough tuning. LB7 and LLY tunes are very close to each other with the exception of the variable vane portion of LLY tuning. The defuel portions that Ben mentioned are identical, the LLY tunes just break it down further by Baro. The LLY has more adjustment tables than the LB7 in general.

I think the reason there are so many big power LB7s is because they are the oldest model and guys that own them have been tweaking their trucks the longest.

LBZs are pretty easy to tune over all but there are some things I don't like about them like the intake tract from the intercooler to the engine, and of course the risky pistons.

BTW Jneals pulling truck is an LBZ.

[hondarider552]

We had an issur tuning nemo's but it was alll figured out.

If I could do it again, id get a lb7.

[Crazy_Steve]

Hmmm...Just seems like mod for mod, lbz's are going faster.

[Mike]

Depends on the def. of tuning? IMHO, Tuning for HP is easy on any of them. Tuning for all around performance, mileage, durability and hp becomes easier with more options. IE.. LLY and up. I think the LB7 is the hardest to tune when all the above is considered into one tune.

So, my vote goes +1 for the LLY and up. :thumb:

[OTHRGRL]

Hmmm...Just seems like mod for mod, lbz's are going faster.

The fastest stock turbo, fuel only pass I know of in an LLY is Skintback's 12.39 @ 108 - while in an LBZ it's 12.42 @ 107. LBZs in general are faster on tuning than LLYs though. I don't think it has to do with the ease of tuning though. The LBZ has a stronger CP3, better intake and turbo inlet, better intake runners and Y-bridge, and better flowing turbo.

[Turbotug]

TheBac's LB7 runs 12.40 @108 on a stock turbo.

[codyn]

i have a built lly and it ran 117mph in 1/4 at full weight. it had a built short block with the 3388 socal cam with stock heads and springs and a gt42 custom charger. had some with problems with the tunning because of the new bigger injectors i put in. but still clip off over 800hp by track times on stock heads.

[05smoker]

The fastest stock turbo, fuel only pass I know of in an LLY is Skintback's 12.39 @ 108 - while in an LBZ it's 12.42 @ 107. LBZs in general are faster on tuning than LLYs though. I don't think it has to do with the ease of tuning though. The LBZ has a stronger CP3, better intake and turbo inlet, better intake runners and Y-bridge, and better flowing turbo.

Moss is still the fastest stock turbo run with an LB7. 12.34 IIRC.

[OTHRGRL]

TheBac's LB7 runs 12.40 @108 on a stock turbo.

Moss is still the fastest stock turbo run with an LB7. 12.34 IIRC.

I know but this thread was about LLY to LBZ tuning comparison - that's why I included the fastest I knew of from each.

i have a built lly and it ran 117mph in 1/4 at full weight. it had a built short block with the 3388 socal cam with stock heads and springs and a gt42 custom charger. had some with problems with the tunning because of the new bigger injectors i put in. but still clip off over 800hp by track times on stock heads.

117mph calculating to over 800hp? Were you hanging weights? You would have to be over 8000 lbs for 117 to calculate to over 800hp. Our CCSB at full weight still trapped 119-120 on fuel with an A5K and stock cam and was well under 800hp at the time.

What problems did you have with tuning for the bigger injectors? I have 100% over injectors in my LLY and don't have tuning problems from it.

[codyn]

117mph calculating to over 800hp? Were you hanging weights? You would have to be over 8000 lbs for 117 to calculate to over 800hp. Our CCSB at full weight still trapped 119-120 on fuel with an A5K and stock cam and was well under 800hp at the time.

What problems did you have with tuning for the bigger injectors? I have 100% over injectors in my LLY and don't have tuning problems from it.

i was going by what someone Calculate HP from Trap Speed for me. im happy for you that you did not have a tunning problem with your 100% over injectors. i was switching from a another set of injectors was what my problem was.

[Diesel Tech]

Injectors are not all the same. Just because someone says they are 100 overs really doesn't mean much as there is no standard in the way they get measured. I've have sets that tune like crap while others that are a cake walk. This is what got us into the injectors as they were all over the place. The way the nozzle is made is the key and an Extrude Hone nozzle at 100 over is a crap shoot at best. Take a look around the net and you can see pictures of why. The EH process is great for cleaning things up and small over sizes but I would not go past 50 over with it as above that they are just not consistent in size and shape of the holes.

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

Injectors are not all the same. Just because someone says they are 100 overs really doesn't mean much as there is no standard in the way they get measured. I've have sets that tune like crap while others that are a cake walk. This is what got us into the injectors as they were all over the place. The way the nozzle is made is the key and an Extrude Hone nozzle at 100 over is a crap shoot at best. Take a look around the net and you can see pictures of why. The EH process is great for cleaning things up and small over sizes but I would not go past 50 over with it as above that they are just not consistent in size and shape of the holes.

Not to start an argument as this is not why I am posting in here.

LLY's are no harder to tune than LB7's or LBZ's, there are a few things to consider, but not much harder IMHO.

As far as injectors, there is a standard, and if you want to pay to get them properly done, tested, flowed you can request and get data to verify the % over stock they flow, at what pressure and mm3 they flow, etc.

Just a phone call to Guy at SoCal Diesel is all.

The last dozen trucks I have tuned with his injectors I got data on them all and they were consistently within 2-3% of each other.

The engines he has gotten back that were tuned by other shops with untested injectors resulted in broken crank shafts and other internal damage.

;)

[OTHRGRL]

LLY's are no harder to tune than LB7's or LBZ's, there are a few things to consider, but not much harder IMHO.

As far as injectors, there is a standard, and if you want to pay to get them properly done, tested, flowed you can request and get data to verify the % over stock they flow, at what pressure and mm3 they flow, etc.

Just a phone call to Guy at SoCal Diesel is all.

The last dozen trucks I have tuned with his injectors I got data on them all and they were consistently within 2-3% of each other.

The engines he has gotten back that were tuned by other shops with untested injectors resulted in broken crank shafts and other internal damage.

;)


I agree on all points. It's not that there isn't a standard out there - it's that many places that are enlarging injectors don't have the test equipment to properly test them at real world pressures - so their figures are pretty much a guess. EDMed injectors don't always come out so great either, the shop really needs to know what they are doing and then they will still need cleaned up with Extrude Honing.

[Diesel Tech]

Try and get the test standard that all the suppliers are using and you wil find you cannot. That is the issue, just getting a piece of paper with numbers on it doesn't mean a thing if the method of measurement is different between each supplier. Guy has no measuring equipment nor injector testing equipment. He buys and resells them just the same as many others do. Does that make the ones he is selling any better or worse than others............. NO.

The issue is a simple one and until there is a standard that gets followed by everyone there will be issues tuning if you have not worked with them before. Just because one person says they are 100 over just doesn't mean much unless you know how they were tested.

This is what makes tuneing different or harder as some say.

[Mike]

Steve we all have to have faith in what we buy and where we buy it. Is the 99.999 percent pure gold we have faith in really 99.999 percent? Same goes for copper and we have many different techniques to get to our end result.

Although I'm positive I have not bought and tested as many sets of injectors as others have, I know without a doubt testing has proven some manufactures have very little care of concern in repeatability. We have chosen guys injectors to test and we can only bank on his experience at the moment. I can tell you for sure Guy has been right on with delivery and promise and testing will show whether or not we are smart enough to take advantage of his product. If we have to build around his knowledge atleast we are able to move forward.

As far as if he makes them, tests them or poops them, for us we are after his reputation in the industry. So far, he takes care of his customers, returns calls and is very interested in selling a product today without us begging him for a price, return call or shipping date.

The standard is still being developed. Takes ideas, practice and repeatability for a standard to surface. Right now too many people are trying for a piece of the pie for a "Standard".

What good is having the best if we constantly have to work on the best?

Back on topic. Are the lly's a PITA to tune? What is the verdict?

[mick]

I had brand new MDE 10 Hole 29% over injectors in a brand new built engine - 2 of them failed after app 500 miles and as we couldnt get any answers from the supplier we have purchased a new set of 100% over from SoCal Diesel. Aside from the excellent service from Guy compared to MDE it will be interesting to see the difference making the injector change without any other changes. Tuning the MDEs up to 700hp was ordinary at best but over that they were inconsistant to say the least and all information from MDE on paper didnt work in the real world. If we were doing R&R we could deal with it ok, but we paid for a product that is out on the shelf for sale to the public. Aside from the dolar value we made more power easier with stock injectors and I guess MDE is still on holidays in Europe because he still hasnt responded and I doubt he will - service also goes along way in business

[Diesel Tech]

While I agree that there is a lot of not so good injectors nozzles being sold out there, they are not all bad! A year and halve ago Guy and crew were telling everyone injectors were not needed, so what changed? Now they are the expert at injectors, I think not. Some of the BS of broken crankshafts is just an excuse that's being made. GM has had a shit load of bad injectors, that's what got the warranty moved up to 200,000 miles for the LB7's. How many broken crankshafts do you here about from that mess............................ very few if any.

Measuring these is not all that hard if you have the equipment and the will to do it. There needs to be some standard if you are going to try and compare parts though. If one supplier rates there units by wet flow with calibration fluid and another rates theirs by dry air flow they can both be telling the truth for measurements they made but they will work completely different! Just the same as running the test at 100 bar or 200 bar will yield different results. Injectors are not linear in flow increase, So while many will flow great numbers at max pressure and PW they may suck at low pressure and short PW. Without knowing the real information tuning them is near impossible.

This is where I believe many are having there issues and the LLY is different than the LB7. Is one harder than the other some may say yes but it's real up to what your doing and how many have you already done of the same combination.

[Mike]

As far as broken cranks, I don't know with stock tunes injectors and the like, they have failed. But breaking due to injectors with no-where near the power levels, very possible. As far as the LB7 injectors and their warrantees: My said LB7. which I've put 140,000 on, No warrantee for me it's an 04. So maybe a production thing or material type.

But, this is not an lly regarding this subject.

[mick]

Try and get the test standard that all the suppliers are using and you wil find you cannot. That is the issue, just getting a piece of paper with numbers on it doesn't mean a thing if the method of measurement is different between each supplier. Guy has no measuring equipment nor injector testing equipment. He buys and resells them just the same as many others do. Does that make the ones he is selling any better or worse than others............. NO.

The issue is a simple one and until there is a standard that gets followed by everyone there will be issues tuning if you have not worked with them before. Just because one person says they are 100 over just doesn't mean much unless you know how they were tested.

This is what makes tuneing different or harder as some say.

Im not the smartest around but what would be so hard as measuring if something flows x percent more than a stock item? injectors or water pipes?

[Mike]

Im not the smartest around but what would be so hard as measuring if something flows x percent more than a stock item? injectors or water pipes?

I guess we can measure the same way mpg is measured on a track. Maybe an AFR meter and opacity tests of sorts along with a btu device around the truck and well we'd have to have an accurate way to measure quantity. We'll just run it till it runs out and do a bit of math and well we will have our standard. Nah, we'll rely on someone moving forward with the technology which will allow us to grow and make more reliable power.



Right now, we as enthusiast, can only build from available components meaning we can only get what we can get out of particular combination from off the shelf items. But, as we build we learn and pick up on what we can do to make an item work better ( because of this experience ). Once we start this, we become developers and now we have to earn and gain a reputation. I'm not saying one product is better than another or one set of ? is better and easier than another. All I am saying is we need to know and understand a product, with support from the vendor, to make the best of that product. Without credible support we can only cause failure.

[OTHRGRL]

Try and get the test standard that all the suppliers are using and you wil find you cannot. That is the issue, just getting a piece of paper with numbers on it doesn't mean a thing if the method of measurement is different between each supplier. Guy has no measuring equipment nor injector testing equipment. He buys and resells them just the same as many others do. Does that make the ones he is selling any better or worse than others............. NO.

I know there isn't a uniform standard for the shops to use - what I was trying to say was that many shops don't even test them under somewhat real-world conditions, and even if they do they don't strive to balance them to with-in a close percentage of each other.

As for Guy having test equipment at his shop - no he doesn't (to my knowledge). What he has done is developed a standard that he wants injectors tested to then found a shop that can meet his strict requirements. He isn't buying injectors and reselling them - he is taking in injectors and farming out the work to a shop that can get them right. He also sends out flow sheets for the injectors - showing exactly how much test fluid they flow at different pressures and pulsewidths, all very real-world and to with-in a very close percentage of each other. That is what DOES make his injectors better than most others I know of. If you sell or mod injectors and can prove they are tested to as strict of standards (with actual flow data at different pressures and PW) by all means let us know - but don't try to drag Guy down.

While I agree that there is a lot of not so good injectors nozzles being sold out there, they are not all bad! A year and halve ago Guy and crew were telling everyone injectors were not needed, so what changed? Now they are the expert at injectors, I think not. Some of the BS of broken crankshafts is just an excuse that's being made. GM has had a shit load of bad injectors, that's what got the warranty moved up to 200,000 miles for the LB7's. How many broken crankshafts do you here about from that mess............................ very few if any.

Measuring these is not all that hard if you have the equipment and the will to do it. There needs to be some standard if you are going to try and compare parts though. If one supplier rates there units by wet flow with calibration fluid and another rates theirs by dry air flow they can both be telling the truth for measurements they made but they will work completely different! Just the same as running the test at 100 bar or 200 bar will yield different results. Injectors are not linear in flow increase, So while many will flow great numbers at max pressure and PW they may suck at low pressure and short PW. Without knowing the real information tuning them is near impossible.

A year and a half ago Guy was saying that he was seeing alot of problems with aftermarket injectors - not that they aren't needed. Pat is the one that has always preached about the power that can be made on stock injectors. At stock power levels I don't think cranks are going to break from bad injectors - but when you start pushing parts to their limits having injectors that are out of whack will certainly cause issues. As with everything else Guy sells he wasn't going to stand behind a product until he knew that it performed up to his standards and up until recently he hadn't found aftermarket injectors (or a shop to make them) that met his standards - hence him only recommending stock injectors.

[Diesel Tech]

The thing is that changing injectors on an duramax motor requires changes and the LLY is no different than the LB7 or LBZ. They way they respond all depends on how the injector was tested and if you have worked that out before. What I can tell you is the LLY is much more sensitive to an injector change than the LB7 is due to the way it is handled in the code for controlling.

[Mike]

Steve, testing as in developement?

As far as the code, yes they all differ in that regard as well as voltage and current.

If it is particular code, what are the variables apart from the obvious in the system calibrations we see with EFILIVE?

[OTHRGRL]

The thing is that changing injectors on an duramax motor requires changes and the LLY is no different than the LB7 or LBZ. They way they respond all depends on how the injector was tested and if you have worked that out before. What I can tell you is the LLY is much more sensitive to an injector change than the LB7 is due to the way it is handled in the code for controlling.

Steve, testing as in developement?

As far as the code, yes they all differ in that regard as well as voltage and current.

If it is particular code, what are the variables apart from the obvious in the system calibrations we see with EFILIVE?

Most of the fueling tables in LB7 and LLY tunes are the same in EFI Live and I have not found it any harder to tune one or the other for bigger injectors. Having real flow data for the injectors helps on either.

[Mike]

Most of the fueling tables in LB7 and LLY tunes are the same in EFI Live and I have not found it any harder to tune one or the other for bigger injectors. Having real flow data for the injectors helps on either.

Thanks but I was referring to multipliers as the differs'.

I was also referring to the "Code" as the calibrations line code for what to execute and in what order if this is different between EFILIVE and ?

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

Try and get the test standard that all the suppliers are using and you wil find you cannot. That is the issue, just getting a piece of paper with numbers on it doesn't mean a thing if the method of measurement is different between each supplier. Guy has no measuring equipment nor injector testing equipment. He buys and resells them just the same as many others do. Does that make the ones he is selling any better or worse than others............. NO.

The issue is a simple one and until there is a standard that gets followed by everyone there will be issues tuning if you have not worked with them before. Just because one person says they are 100 over just doesn't mean much unless you know how they were tested.

This is what makes tuneing different or harder as some say.

I assume that GM had no standard when Bosch made STOCK injectors for them for 2001-2004/LB7 and 2004.5/2005 LLY and now LBZ and LMM ???

If there is no standard what is it they are using ??

Stop trying to confuse everyone, there is a standard it is called stock, and yes if you get them properly tested and flowed and duplicated the tuning is very easy if you do a set and then see what you have to change !

Guy may not do them in-house, but the "house" that does them is excellent. What difference does that make anyway ??? Do you make your rods "in house" or does TTS still have R&R make them ??? HMMMMMMMMMM

While I agree that there is a lot of not so good injectors nozzles being sold out there, they are not all bad! A year and halve ago Guy and crew were telling everyone injectors were not needed, so what changed? Now they are the expert at injectors, I think not. Some of the BS of broken crankshafts is just an excuse that's being made. GM has had a shit load of bad injectors, that's what got the warranty moved up to 200,000 miles for the LB7's. How many broken crankshafts do you here about from that mess............................ very few if any.

Measuring these is not all that hard if you have the equipment and the will to do it. There needs to be some standard if you are going to try and compare parts though. If one supplier rates there units by wet flow with calibration fluid and another rates theirs by dry air flow they can both be telling the truth for measurements they made but they will work completely different! Just the same as running the test at 100 bar or 200 bar will yield different results. Injectors are not linear in flow increase, So while many will flow great numbers at max pressure and PW they may suck at low pressure and short PW. Without knowing the real information tuning them is near impossible.

This is where I believe many are having there issues and the LLY is different than the LB7. Is one harder than the other some may say yes but it's real up to what your doing and how many have you already done of the same combination.

Nobody claims to be an expert except you, your story is always the same Steve, your shit is the best and everybody else is late to the table or not as good, I call BS on it. You tune your way and I tune my way, and I don't have any trouble tuning trucks with stock, 20-100% over injectors, either LB7 or LLY. As far as the broken cranks, again it's you stirring the pot up trying to tear people down, it isn't gonna fly over here, not if I have anything to do about it.

The thing is that changing injectors on an duramax motor requires changes and the LLY is no different than the LB7 or LBZ. They way they respond all depends on how the injector was tested and if you have worked that out before. What I can tell you is the LLY is much more sensitive to an injector change than the LB7 is due to the way it is handled in the code for controlling.

Not that I have seen or tuned, but maybe my software works better than yours.

;)

[Diesel Tech]

Tony

We can always count on you to twist things every way you want. I hear you crying about people copying tunes now but when you did the same thing it was OK. -:t You are the one that brought up the BS about the crankshaft, I just answered your BS with facts.

Guy buys injectors from Exergy Engineering, just like balancers he buys from ATI, he didn't design them or do anything that anyone else cannot do by picking up the phone and calling them. We designed our own rods and products and have shops build parts for us, that's the difference.

Bottom line is there is no standard the aftermarket injectors are following. As such knowing what the factory flows is only as good as the way the measurement is being taken. Guy has no clue just as Tony has no clue as to how it's done. If company "A" does it different than company "B" the results will be different and that's what i mean when I say there is no standard. A standard would mean that they all get tested the same way and then you could compare the results from company "A" versus company "B".

As far as what you can see with EFIlive I have no idea as I do not use or have it. Yes, I've seen it but could not tell you anything about it as I just do not bother to try and see what they may ar maynot be showing you guys. What they show you is just calibration it is not the code that runs/executes things.

[Mike]

Tony

We can always count on you to twist things every way you want. I hear you crying about people copying tunes now but when you did the same thing it was OK. -:t You are the one that brought up the BS about the crankshaft, I just answered your BS with facts.

Guy buys injectors from Exergy Engineering, just like balancers he buys from ATI, he didn't design them or do anything that anyone else cannot do by picking up the phone and calling them. We designed our own rods and products and have shops build parts for us, that's the difference.

Bottom line is there is no standard the aftermarket injectors are following. As such knowing what the factory flows is only as good as the way the measurement is being taken. Guy has no clue just as Tony has no clue as to how it's done. If company "A" does it different than company "B" the results will be different and that's what i mean when I say there is no standard. A standard would mean that they all get tested the same way and then you could compare the results from company "A" versus company "B".

As far as what you can see with EFIlive I have no idea as I do not use or have it. Yes, I've seen it but could not tell you anything about it as I just do not bother to try and see what they may ar maynot be showing you guys. What they show you is just calibration it is not the code that runs/executes things.

It's kinda strange you say the calibration is not the code that runs/executes things.

Ever corrupted the eprom in an ECM and tried to start a vehicle? If the calibration does not include the code and is only variables, why the calibration sizes of 512kb for lb7, 1 meg for lly and so on and only gets bigger as newer op's come out? Our calibrations and operating systems are one. Maybe your system only read and write the variables.

[Diesel Tech]

The Gm Delphi system uses a Flash not an Eprom. The big difference between the two are that the flash has sections in it. You can erase and program in sections with a flash and you cannot do that with an Eprom. The GM code set is made up of various sections of calibration area and that is what you reflash with EFIlive. When you do a full system reflash you are replacing all of it, code and calibration. Now as for why it does not work when you corrupt just the calibration area is because the operating code does not see the calibration area. If you look at the various sections you will see the names of each section. The area that contains the code that runs things is called the operating system. The rest of it is just calibration area. A full flash like a GM factory Tech II does is the entire code set but EFIlive and most other system only do the calibration area.

As for what we do here, we can do it all or any one part of it, all depends on what is needed.

[Mike]

The Gm Delphi system uses a Flash not an Eprom. The big difference between the two are that the flash has sections in it. You can erase and program in sections with a flash and you cannot do that with an Eprom. The GM code set is made up of various sections of calibration area and that is what you reflash with EFIlive. When you do a full system reflash you are replacing all of it, code and calibration. Now as for why it does not work when you corrupt just the calibration area is because the operating code does not see the calibration area. If you look at the various sections you will see the names of each section. The area that contains the code that runs things is called the operating system. The rest of it is just calibration area. A full flash like a GM factory Tech II does is the entire code set but EFIlive and most other system only do the calibration area.

As for what we do here, we can do it all or any one part of it, all depends on what is needed.

Ok the Flash chip " brand " " architecture " or Intel flash " prom " it's rom either rewriteable or not, volatile or non volatile.

Anyway you look at the Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory [ not architecture specific EPROM ] Steve the chip has either been set to read or write. If set to write and never returned to read the chip is useless unless otherwise repaired or replaced [ Not by sections either ]. So, since the offset points to the information, who knows what is where. We, as in EFI users, can read the complete OS which includes the calibration and write said or we can only write changed calibration varibles. So, looks like we have the same advantages as your system.

[Mike]

Here is a cool drawing and some words about what we are flashing. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/EEPROM

[RickDLance]

No more insults guys. We appreciate the tech discussion, but lets have it WITHOUT the usual finger pointing. Thanks!

[Diesel Tech]

Mike

I know well how it works and what we are flashing and it's not a EEPROM or otherwise known as a double E. It a flash chip and it cannot be set to write. You either program it or read it and that's it. It can and does get programmed in sections and that is it's big advantage over an Eprom. A Eprom has to be erased and written completely. A EEProm can be done byte at a time or in sections but they are much smaller devices.

In any case the OS is what contains all the instructions of what to do. The rest of the parts contain the calibration area. I have been told that EFI shows you guys the part numbers of the various sections and if it doesn't you can go to GM calibration site and see them.

http://tis2web.service.gm.com/tis2web

Just fill in your VIN and it will show you the up to date software for your vehicle and each parts name.

You cannot change what the OS section does with EFIlive all you can do is write it over again. We on the other hand can and do change what the OS does to get the things we want it to do. It's not a big deal but let's talk about it properly so you all can learn it right. There is much more to it than just changing calibration numbers and that is what EFIlive does and most of the other tuning software does as well. It all about what information the software let's you see as they are only showing you about 1 20th of what is really there. So if you cannot see it and cannot change it does it matter?

[Mike]

Steve

Without arguing every point and making this look like some sort of sword fight:

The flash is all but the same as an EEPROM minus the erase one bit or all bits one after the other for EEPROM and section for the FLASH. And, some capacity options. I clarified my mis-typed word from calibration to os. I also mentioned some of your above points as I didn't care to go into detail over such when we are in a lly tuning thread. I only mentioned the one link for those who care to read on. Sounds like we need to split this thread. I've just gotta learn how... lol

Why are we required to wait for count down? I've ruined my fair share of " flash " chips by saying screw it, let's go and I'll have an ecm not recognized condition?

Whatever happened with the hidden tables thing? Would it be possible to bring that over here for a new thread so we can petition Ross for some changes.

I also agree we cannot change what the os does meaning exclude... or calculate 2x faster...... but this does not mean Ross cannot.

Sounds like your sofware is bad to the bone. I've got to have it. I bet I'll never be able to get it, darn economy.

Anyway, dreams out of the way, where do we buy this software?

We change operating systems in TCM's daily. I'll try an ECM complete OS change and see what happens. Wait a minute, we do this with the DSP2 and DSP5 switch installation as well as v2 tune selection option? I'm confused. Must be a partial or block write. And what about what we do when we put a dmax in a boat and run a stock delphi ecm? We put a standard transmission bone bare truck ecm operating system in our existing ecm. I believe some of the issues with reading tcm's and ecm's have been related to what algorithim is required to read the info.

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

Tony

We can always count on you to twist things every way you want. I hear you crying about people copying tunes now but when you did the same thing it was OK. -:t You are the one that brought up the BS about the crankshaft, I just answered your BS with facts.

Guy buys injectors from Exergy Engineering, just like balancers he buys from ATI, he didn't design them or do anything that anyone else cannot do by picking up the phone and calling them. We designed our own rods and products and have shops build parts for us, that's the difference.

Bottom line is there is no standard the aftermarket injectors are following. As such knowing what the factory flows is only as good as the way the measurement is being taken. Guy has no clue just as Tony has no clue as to how it's done. If company "A" does it different than company "B" the results will be different and that's what i mean when I say there is no standard. A standard would mean that they all get tested the same way and then you could compare the results from company "A" versus company "B".

As far as what you can see with EFIlive I have no idea as I do not use or have it. Yes, I've seen it but could not tell you anything about it as I just do not bother to try and see what they may ar maynot be showing you guys. What they show you is just calibration it is not the code that runs/executes things.

No Steve,

You answered my statement with more BULLSHIT as always.

You have nothing to say other than he copied tunes, blah, blah, blah..........and he doesn't know what he's doing...blah, blah, blah

Same BS here as it was at the Place.

We do have a clue how it is done.

We pick the flow mm3 of fuel, we pick the MPA of pressure that we want for the tests, so yeah we do have a clue.

In fact the injectors we get are all dome the same way, it's calles the "right way"

So keep on mis-informing and lying about the rest of us and hopefully the staff here stops condoning it.

What happened, the DP finally stood up to your bullshit too and now you don't want to be a vendor anymore there, hmmmmm, little Nicky can't protect you anymore.

:thumb:


No more insults guys. We appreciate the tech discussion, but lets have it WITHOUT the usual finger pointing. Thanks!

Sorry Rick,

I am not going to let him post lies and not respond.

:mad:

[Mike]

It takes folks on the board to recognize and call bs and do so without causing a stir. We have to ask this of everyone equally even though flares are in progress or started elsewhere. We appreciate your concern and hope we can continue getting your support in the form of a pm or simple comments in a thread. We just don't like the punches.

Rick warned, I believe that should have been enough. We'll see.



No Steve,

You answered my statement with more BULLSHIT as always.

You have nothing to say other than he copied tunes, blah, blah, blah..........and he doesn't know what he's doing...blah, blah, blah

Same BS here as it was at the Place.

We do have a clue how it is done.

We pick the flow mm3 of fuel, we pick the MPA of pressure that we want for the tests, so yeah we do have a clue.

In fact the injectors we get are all dome the same way, it's calles the "right way"

So keep on mis-informing and lying about the rest of us and hopefully the staff here stops condoning it.

What happened, the DP finally stood up to your bullshit too and now you don't want to be a vendor anymore there, hmmmmm, little Nicky can't protect you anymore.

:thumb:




Sorry Rick,

I am not going to let him post lies and not respond.

:mad:

[Diesel Tech]

Mike

First lets start by saying I am not here to sell our software, so we can get that out of the way. This isn't about our software versus there software. The ECM is the same for 2002 -2004 LB7 so you can swap the code and calibration just fine. The LLY for 2004 - 2005 is the same and the 2006 - 2008 is again the same. The point that I've made is that EFIlive does not allow you the user to modify the code only the calibration area. You can swap one code set for another with a full flash but that's it. All you are doing is installing one of the factory GM code sets along with calibration changes or installing a GM code set that EFIlive factory modified. You the user have no means to modify the code, only the calibration area.

The reason you wait for count down is the ECM needs to reset to complete its flash cycle. This is called house cleaning by most people who write code. Once the last block of the reflash is set in place into the flash chip the ECM needs to load it then clean the EE area up to restore it. Yes, these ECM's use both EE and Flash, but the code is stored in the Flash. This take about 8 seconds to occur. If you disturb it during this time it just the same as removing the boot code from a PC. It just does not know how to get itself started at power up. The LB7 ECM are easy to fix but the LLY and newer are not as easy when this happens.

As for the missing tables there are hundreds if not thousands that are not shown by EFIlive. The ones we have found that we feel make for a better tune we keep to ourselves, but rest assured they are there and would help you guys.

As for a boat motor it's the same as a dyno motor. Just use manual transmission code and calibration then switch the VATS off and your good to go. That is a simple calibration change to the ECM.

Now back to the LLY tuning issue and there is more calibration and code in an LLY and that added information sometime screws with what people are doing. If you move outside of some of the areas the other tables start to screw with you in is where the problems come from. It's just a mater of knowing how far you can go before you have to stop.

* Off topic and personal comments have been moved - But, are still on file *

[Mike]

Steve

[quote=Diesel Tech;26866]Mike

First lets start by saying I am not here to sell our software, so we can get that out of the way. This isn't about our software versus there software. The ECM is the same for 2002 -2004 LB7 so you can swap the code and calibration just fine. The LLY for 2004 - 2005 is the same and the 2006 - 2008 is again the same. The point that I've made is that EFIlive does not allow you the user to modify the code only the calibration area. You can swap one code set for another with a full flash but that's it. All you are doing is installing one of the factory GM code sets along with calibration changes or installing a GM code set that EFIlive factory modified. You the user have no means to modify the code, only the calibration area.

Going in circles.

The reason you wait for count down is the ECM needs to reset to complete its flash cycle. This is called house cleaning by most people who write code. Once the last block of the reflash is set in place into the flash chip the ECM needs to load it then clean the EE area up to restore it. Yes, these ECM's use both EE and Flash, but the code is stored in the Flash. This take about 8 seconds to occur. If you disturb it during this time it just the same as removing the boot code from a PC. It just does not know how to get itself started at power up. The LB7 ECM are easy to fix but the LLY and newer are not as easy when this happens.

My point exactly, different wording.

As for the missing tables there are hundreds if not thousands that are not shown by EFIlive. The ones we have found that we feel make for a better tune we keep to ourselves, but rest assured they are there and would help you guys.

As for a boat motor it's the same as a dyno motor. Just use manual transmission code and calibration then switch the VATS off and your good to go. That is a simple calibration change to the ECM.


Same info, different wording.


Now back to the LLY tuning issue and there is more calibration and code in an LLY and that added information sometime screws with what people are doing. If you move outside of some of the areas the other tables start to screw with you in is where the problems come from. It's just a mater of knowing how far you can go before you have to stop.

I don't believe this to be a valid comment unless specifics are given. Kinda like leading the blind. The point of the thread is to help resolve a confused topic, not add more confusion.









You couldn't take a hint Steve, we will not have this escalate any further. You didn't add any new information to the thread by this comment, you only added insult to injury. Enough.

[neversatisfied]

You couldn't take a hint Steve, we will not have this escalate any further. You didn't add any new information to the thread by this comment, you only added insult to injury. Enough.

The same goes for Tony. You were both warned to stop and both of you have said your rebuttal. Please continue posting with tech info and leave the personal stuff out.

Thank you

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

Not a problem.........;)

I said what I needed to say.

:thumb:

[Diesel Tech]

The LLY has more code that tests the fuel delivery parameters to deal with emissions and the VNT turbocharger. This is why the memory size was increase from 512K to 1 meg. You go outside of what those test will allow and your tuning will not work properly. I do not know how else to state it and if all was well why would people be talking about these issues all over the internet? Go to just about any forum and see people asking why this or that is happening and why can they not fix it. It's not that you cannot make power as is but there are still problems and some of it is in the code not the calibration area. All it takes is a little looking around to see that there is more than a few people coming out and now talking about the troubles they are having.

[Mike]

Could it be one or a more folks can deal with it and make power with the LLY? I know two I help with lly's that really shine, seems these lly's are very predictable. Both built engines but did not require more or less to accomplish huge numbers. The OPs' question, if using EFILIVE, is no more drama than any other engine code tuning. Expecially if the vvt has been removed along with the EGR. If Larger injectors are used control becomes that much better.

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

I have found some LLY OS have issues and some do not, I recently flew to Canada and tuned a twinned LLY and swapped his stock/base Canadian tune for a US one, even though the segment numbers matched the truck ran much better with a OS change/full flash.

It could be a coincidence or maybe not.

I have not had much frustration with LLY's, it seems to me that efi-live has covered everything that I need to alter, even for non-VVT conversions.

If I ask for a specific fuel pw, timing, fuel pressure I can get it without any problems.

:)

[Mike]

That's right, I've had the occasional frustration but seem to find a work around. [ Help from everywhere for sure ]

We, at one time, had problems with the LBZ defuel [ Not saying the only issue ]. Pulled our hair out then found the torque factor and did a work around until Ross came to the rescue with the TCM control. I personally like the LBZ/LMM OS :-)

Seems we have big frustration with what we don't know. I know I blame everything else before I take the blame. lol ):h

[Crazy_Steve]

I have found some LLY OS have issues and some do not, I recently flew to Canada and tuned a twinned LLY and swapped his stock/base Canadian tune for a US one, even though the segment numbers matched the truck ran much better with a OS change/full flash.

It could be a coincidence or maybe not.

I have not had much frustration with LLY's, it seems to me that efi-live has covered everything that I need to alter, even for non-VVT conversions.

If I ask for a specific fuel pw, timing, fuel pressure I can get it without any problems.

:)

Say more about this OS reflash.

Do you remember what OS it was and what it was switched to?

IM running 8758 right now.

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

I can e-mail the stock tune to you.

:)

[hondarider552]

Is your LLY a LBZ now steve? ):h


Tanks Tony and Steve for your great tech info, just leave the personal attacks out. :)

[Crazy_Steve]

I can e-mail the stock tune to you.

:)

sschmitzer@gmail.com

[Ridge_Runner_Diesel]

You have an email Steve

;)

[subman]

Idaho Rob doesn't seem to have any trouble tuning them.