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View Full Version : What's wrong with low timing, big boost?


Nick
06-03-2008, 08:03 PM
The Bac brought a point that I think deserves more discussion in the rail pressure vs. cylinder pressure thread (http://dmaxcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95).


Is there any merit to running weaker than average timing and unleashing the compressor on it. This would be all at the same overall per/stroke fuel volume of course. I think it's generally agreed that once you've started main injection, it's best to atomize as much fuel as possible as quickly as possible.

Higher rail pressure moves to this cause, but it also raises peak cylinder pressure as verified. With that said, I think we'll run out of technology before we're able to inject at a pressure substantial enough to affect cylinder pressure more than main injection timing (at stock nozzle size). Injection timing seams to rule peak cylinder at this stage, although- that doesn't necessarily rule the Torque factor. Look at these two graphs, the first one is high timing, the second one is lower timing. They're the same fuel quantity and make the same torque factor, but one has a significantly higher peak cylinder pressure.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/vortecfcar/CPT_60_2575RPM.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m201/vortecfcar/CPT_20_2535RPM.jpg


When I first saw this I was surprised that they made the same torque. I wondered if timing really was that important. ?

But then I noticed that I was running clean. The truck had very little smoke on a WOT run. I was certainly not overfueled by traditional gearhead standards.

My question is, do you think it's reasonable to spray fuel that late in the power stroke for the intent of making power and keeping the engine alive. And if so, is it cost effective to run 55 lbs of boost on a stock longblock to make the same horsepower, as reliably as built engine would make said horsepower at 42lbs?

Nick

minisub
06-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Are you saying that the top chart was at 55 lbs boost and the bottom was at 42? Or are those just "hypothetical" numbers. (Did I just say that?...:-)

Nick
06-03-2008, 09:48 PM
The numbers I threw out there were hypothetical. I said it too.. hah


The top chart was at high timing, the second one was at low timing. Boost, fuel, and toque (per Jons calculator) was similar between runs. The only difference was that one tune was injecting fuel later in the power stroke, during what is traditionally thought of as a less fruitful part of the combustion cycle. My offering is that a higher boost level might help us regain this area of the power stroke to use for saving pistons, rods, and money in some measurable way.

....or something like that... :)

Fingers
06-03-2008, 11:15 PM
There is a flaw in the Torque Factor calculation. The math is correct, but the trailing edge of the pressure spike is being influenced by the electronics. The residual pressure does not tail off like that in actuality.

I am working on a software fix to account for the flaw as well as trying to clean up the hardware to minimize the affect. The electronics part is repeatable and predictable and comes from capacitance in the sensing system. The ascending part of the curve is very faithful to the actual pressure because it is being driven by the sensor. The trailing edge is dependent on the draining of the electrons from the sensor circuit.

Work in progress.

In both graphs Nick posted, the pressure reading from about 43* ATDC on are being dominated by the flaw and not the actual pressure. If you look, you can see a kick in the torque and pressure curves. This is about where the graph and the actual pressure diverge. Sorry. :(

With that in mind, you see that there is actually a lot more area under the torque line (gray) for the higher timing (first graph) than the later.

James Hess
06-04-2008, 02:36 PM
is there some book somewhere i can buy and read up on to try and even begin to understand what yall are talking about? i would desperatly love to know as much as i can about these things. sorry to trail off the thread.

LarryJewell
06-04-2008, 02:52 PM
is there some book somewhere i can buy and read up on to try and even begin to understand what yall are talking about? i would desperatly love to know as much as i can about these things. sorry to trail off the thread.

X 2 :)

minisub
06-04-2008, 03:22 PM
is there some book somewhere i can buy and read up on to try and even begin to understand what yall are talking about? ...

James, you are SOL. :eek2: ;)



















I've been trying to figure out what the hell Fingers has been talking about for decades....:lol:

Fingers
06-04-2008, 05:31 PM
Oh , it ain't all that bad is it? :D

James Hess
06-04-2008, 08:02 PM
Oh , it ain't all that bad is it? :D

try looking at it from the outside and for a second forget everything you know, does it seem like a different language to you now? :confused: :lol:

neversatisfied
06-04-2008, 09:03 PM
Oh , it ain't all that bad is it? :D

More often than not I'd say it isnt that bad. Atleast for me.:)

IdahoRob
06-04-2008, 10:17 PM
This theory is what I live by. Big boost, less timing and high rail pressure. Has worked for two stock engined trucks with a ton of abuse and absolutly 0 problems for 4 combined years.

I haven't run the tests with fingers equipment, but have over 700 passes at the 1/4 mile testing timing, rail pressure, etc vs. ET and MPH. So far so good with decent #'s

blksmok
06-04-2008, 10:18 PM
Welcome Rob! :hello:
Good to see you here.

minisub
06-04-2008, 10:18 PM
Oh , it ain't all that bad is it? :D

No, not at all. :thumb: ):h

More often than not I'd say it isnt that bad. Atleast for me.:)

Uhmmm, do you maybe want to rephrase that?....:eek2: :moon:

Nick
06-05-2008, 09:46 AM
How 'bout I just send the sensor to you Rob, you can put it in, do a data log and we'll call that the safe ceiling.

:)

ps- welcome!

neversatisfied
06-05-2008, 10:42 AM
No, not at all. :thumb: ):h



Uhmmm, do you maybe want to rephrase that?....:eek2: :moon:

Why dont you like my phrase:moon::rolleyes: