To header or Not to header...this is the question

[madmaxdmax]

What benefits are there for running a LB7 or other version Dmax with headers? I am considering having some made possibly, but being a somewhat of a "newbie" to diesel technology I am lacking info on this subject. I assume that egt's would be lower but what dia. header would work the best and would I run into probs like on my gasser with headers developing cracks or are diesels that much different of an animal ?? Thanks in advance.:thumb:

[RickDLance]

First off, how much have you done to the motor? What other plans do you have for mods?

As far as cracks we haven't seen any so far and I'm knocking on wood.;)

[madmaxdmax]

Motor stock, turbo stock, 4" turbo back exhaust, no kitty (oem thanks GM) Edge juice w/attitude monitor. Swiss cheesed air box. Yeah...pretty weak but off to a start. As far as what I plan on doing is beefing up the tranny mainly for towing. I am not sure what else would be recc. for the motor as I would like to keep it reliable.

[RickDLance]

I'd like some others to chime in too, but I'd suggest the high flow up pipes for the OEM manifolds. I just don't think you're to the place where you need headers yet.;)

[madmaxdmax]

I'd like some others to chime in too, but I'd suggest the high flow up pipes for the OEM manifolds. I just don't think you're to the place where you need headers yet.;)


Thanks for the reply. I hope that more chime in on this thread so that I can gather more info.:)

[TNRGreene]

IMO headers probably won't hurt. I feel anything you can do to get EGT's down & flow a little better is worth the cost involved.

[Fingers]

With your current set up you are not breathing enough to justify the headers. If anything, I would just get the better manifold for the Driver's side and a better set of up-pipes. Get a good breathing intake and you should be set for the most part. For grins, you could wrap your pipes in insulation to help them retain the heat till it does some good in the turbo.

[TNRGreene]

With your current set up you are not breathing enough to justify the headers. If anything, I would just get the better manifold for the Driver's side and a better set of up-pipes. Get a good breathing intake and you should be set for the most part. For grins, you could wrap your pipes in insulation to help them retain the heat till it does some good in the turbo.
I have a question Jon. With his setup are you saying it will hurt his performance OR just not cost effective? Thanks in advance

[Fingers]

At his performance level, the extra surface area of the headers will cool the charge enough to negate any gains from better flow. So, no net gain for the money. EGTs would be lower to some degree, but less heat is also a reduction in the power available to the turbo.

IMO, headers will not gain him anything.

[TNRGreene]

At his performance level, the extra surface area of the headers will cool the charge enough to negate any gains from better flow. So, no net gain for the money. EGTs would be lower to some degree, but less heat is also a reduction in the power available to the turbo.

IMO, headers will not gain him anything.

Got ya

[neversatisfied]

With your current set up you are not breathing enough to justify the headers. If anything, I would just get the better manifold for the Driver's side and a better set of up-pipes. Get a good breathing intake and you should be set for the most part. For grins, you could wrap your pipes in insulation to help them retain the heat till it does some good in the turbo.

:agreed:

The only thing I'm not quite sure on is wrapping your pipes. I agree that you would probably see an improvement but I hear too many bad things about the wrap so I'm not sure on that.

[Fingers]

Can you elaborate? I know that wrapping can/will increase surface oxidation on cast items like the turbo and manifolds. What else?

[neversatisfied]

Everyone that I have talked to said that wrapping will cook the pipe and cause it to self destruct faster.

[Fingers]

Maybe if you are running constant 1600* or more. Not at our typical EGTs. I think that is left over voodoo from the gassers. The headers on a gasser race motor can, and will, get stinking hot. Wrap them and they will melt. You had to use heat shields instead to keep the soft parts from melting under the hood.

FWIW, I am wrapping mine.

[Diesel Tech]

Everyone that I have talked to said that wrapping will cook the pipe and cause it to self destruct faster.

Wrapping the pipe does ruin them over time. It's not just the added heat that does them in but the moisture that most wraps suck into them when cooling down. That moisture is just as big of a problem if not more than an issue in life of the product. If you plan to wrap leave an area open to allow the material to breath. A good ratio is to cover the pipe only 2/3rd the way around. A good ceramic coating on them is a much better solution than wrapping them.

[RickDLance]

I can see this from mild steel, but surely the SS has a better tolerance for this.

[LarryJewell]

I can see this from mild steel, but surely the SS has a better tolerance for this.

Rick, would you have any apprehension about wrapping a set of your uppipes

[Diesel Tech]

To each there own, but years of seeing wrapped pipes and headers and they all fail when you do it, St. St. or not. Look at most any header company that's been around and they will void any and all warranty of products if they have been wrapped.

[neversatisfied]

To each there own, but years of seeing wrapped pipes and headers and they all fail when you do it, St. St. or not. Look at most any header company that's been around and they will void any and all warranty of products if they have been wrapped.

So you would choose not to wrap the up-pipes at all? Do you think their is something to gain by either wrapping or coating the up-pipes?
When you speak from your past years, is that diesel or gas? A diesel engine certainly sees less temps than a gas engine. Do you still think wrapping is bad even on a diesel?

[TNRGreene]

Mine just went on wrapped :thumb: Time wll tell if the come apart & if/when they do I know where to get some more :D

[RickDLance]

Rick, would you have any apprehension about wrapping a set of your uppipes

I've seen what Steve is talking about on mild steel headers. I've seen cheap headers turn to junk in a year when wrapped.

The up pipes are a better material. Also bear in mind they are not as subject to road water splashing up into the wrap like traditional downdraft style headers.

My guess would be that if someone wrapped a set today it would by a couple of years before we would know for sure. Also aren't the aftermarket downpipes wrapped? Anyone having issues there yet. Not as much heat, but???

I see Todd wrapped his up pipes. Todd are you still driving the truck daily?

[neversatisfied]

I've seen what Steve is talking about on mild steel headers. I've seen cheap headers turn to junk in a year when wrapped.

The up pipes are a better material. Also bear in mind they are not as subject to road water splashing up into the wrap like traditional downdraft style headers.

My guess would be that if someone wrapped a set today it would by a couple of years before we would know for sure. Also aren't the aftermarket downpipes wrapped? Anyone having issues there yet. Not as much heat, but???

I see Todd wrapped his up pipes. Todd are you still driving the truck daily?

Some of the aftermarket down pipes that i have seen were wrapped like Steve described earlier. They had a little area open for it to breath.

[Diesel Tech]

So you would choose not to wrap the up-pipes at all? Do you think their is something to gain by either wrapping or coating the up-pipes?
When you speak from your past years, is that diesel or gas? A diesel engine certainly sees less temps than a gas engine. Do you still think wrapping is bad even on a diesel?


Peak EGT on a properly tuned Gas motor is around 1600 deg under full load, cruise about 900 - 1000 deg. How high you running your diesel? There are blanket type materials that I would recommend. They can be formed to fit the pipe but not wrap around it 100%. This allows the pipe to breath and directs where you want the heat that gets out to go. The moisture issue is real and is simple enough to avoid so I ask why risk it?

[minisub]

I just put on a Diamond Eye downpipe - It was wrapped solid within an inch or so of each end. We'll see how it lasts.

on edit: well, we started with a header question and are now discussing downpipes. Since we're following the exhaust flow, does anyone have a cat or muffler question? :rolleyes:

Sorry for getting OT on you madmax....

[neversatisfied]

Peak EGT on a properly tuned Gas motor is around 1600 deg under full load, cruise about 900 - 1000 deg. How high you running your diesel? There are blanket type materials that I would recommend. They can be formed to fit the pipe but not wrap around it 100%. This allows the pipe to breath and directs where you want the heat that gets out to go. The moisture issue is real and is simple enough to avoid so I ask why risk it?

Thank you for the info, I will take this into consideration.

[James Hess]

just by seeing what i have read i figure if your going to wrap it leave some unwrapped on the ends for a safeguard and call it a day or just wrap it in a criss cross as to not cover every inch of the pipe but still reduce engine bay and other area temps and still direct heat through the pipe, this would allow for the wrap to breath sufficiently might be a little harder to get it tight but i think its worth it. but i could be orbiting mars on this one:lol: plus to you madmax i think you would love the sound output there is no doubt it will sound MEAN i have a set of up pipes and headers from rick in my near plans yeah i proabably wont see any real benifit from the headers for now and neither will you except the result of the perminant evil grinn of joy stuck to the face. plus you will get some satisfaction from every look of jealousy you get from others. but if you plan on anything larger down the road then you will already be set. the decision is up to you mess with it now or later? buy an aftermarket manifold for now and then pay out AGAIN for headers later on i dont see the need for that nor the need for the extra labor. i am not too sure but i dont think there will be any performance loss from this but maybe a little more turbo lag, i figure once things get moving there will be more flow hence more power(more flow is always better) JMO.

[madmaxdmax]

I just put on a Diamond Eye downpipe - It was wrapped solid within an inch or so of each end. We'll see how it lasts.

on edit: well, we started with a header question and are now discussing downpipes. Since we're following the exhaust flow, does anyone have a cat or muffler question? :rolleyes:

Sorry for getting OT on you madmax....

That's quite alright...as I am enjoying lurking in on this conversation):h

[TNRGreene]

i have a set of up pipes and headers from rick in my near plans yeah i proabably wont see any real benifit from the headers for now and neither will you except the result of the perminant evil grinn of joy stuck to the face. plus you will get some satisfaction from every look of jealousy you get from others. but if you plan on anything larger down the road then you will already be set. the decision is up to you mess with it now or later? buy an aftermarket manifold for now and then pay out AGAIN for headers later on i dont see the need for that nor the need for the extra labor. i am not too sure but i dont think there will be any performance loss from this but maybe a little more turbo lag, i figure once things get moving there will be more flow hence more power(more flow is always better) JMO.

This is me above, I have been thinking this way for awhile now Thanks for typing out my thoughts ):h

[cootertunin]

Or they might just fall apart ? I personally have a set of these headers and my truck is back at midwest diesel for the 3rd time because the welds broke and the up pipe just flat blew apart at the flex pipe .

I have climed all over Landon about these things and i told him to just put my manifolds back on piss on the header stuff .

But now he has had a company with tested and qualified welders totally redesign the headers and up pipes and pedestal .

Landon did the next best thing for customer service he removed the set and installed the new headers and up pipes . And went the next step further and coated them at no additional charge .

And will be delivering my truck back to me on a trailer so i dont have to take off work, to go and drive a 1 1/2 to go back and get it

[RickDLance]

Glad you got it taken care of.;)

[James Hess]

Or they might just fall apart ? I personally have a set of these headers and my truck is back at midwest diesel for the 3rd time because the welds broke and the up pipe just flat blew apart at the flex pipe .


where did you get these headers and up pipes from? sounds like you got run for your money please dont take offense to that comment thats just what it sounds like. if it is someone who specifically makes products for gassers with not much experience with diesels or forced induction then i can see where this could happen. on the other hand he could be trying to save costs and used thin wall tubing and crap material.

[RickDLance]

James, I expect they're one of the very first set I built while I was working for MDP.

[Diesel Tech]

Gasoline headers take much more abuse than a diesel header will ever see. Gas motors run hotter in normal running conditions than a diesel does with peak temperatures running close to the same. The left over fuel is more corrosive than diesel is as well. So a quality gas header will take anything a diesel can throw at it. As far as the Up-pipes cracking Rick knows where I stand on that already.

[RickDLance]

It wasn't the up pipe that cracked. It was the flex that blew apart. That problem has been addressed to the best of anyones ability. You even helped with that.;)

I also disagree with your statement that gas headers take more abuse. Peak temps are just a part of the abuse. The diesel engines have vibrations and harmonics that I don't think you could duplicate on a gas engine. Also don't forget the back pressure. Most gas headers never see that.

All in all we as a group have learned a lot in a very short time.;)

[cootertunin]

The headers were changed from the original set and the 2nd set had the flex in the up pipe and i was told that they were a set you had built

123

[RickDLance]

Sure am glad I quit using that stuff.;)

[James Hess]

ok still back to what i said earlier not the part of cheap building but in-experience in this area, you could build one thing for a certian application for a long time and be very good at it but soon as you switch platforms whole new ball game folks. Rick you said this was one of your first sets so there is going to be trial and error that is fact. not trying to throw slander or sand in anyones eye but i was just putting up my opinion. so with that said im sure the problems are fixed to the extent they can be right? and on a side note i didnt think gas engines were that tough on exhaust parts. but i do agree with the vibrations of the motor causing stress on the parts high heat and vibrations/movement is sure to kill anything. and i also did not know that diesels had that much back pressure. but again i could be way out there on this.

[Josh2002cc]

On the backpressure issue, is that created when you let out of the turbo and it surges? If applicable could the back pressue be eliminated with a blow off valve?

[RickDLance]

James, that flex was just a bad choice all the way around. I simply should have known better.

Between myself and MDP we had several people looking for a reasonably priced alternative and we just couldn't find it.

Still not sure that my current offerings are going to hold up. It has for me, but so did the flex.

[James Hess]

On the backpressure issue, is that created when you let out of the turbo and it surges? If applicable could the back pressue be eliminated with a blow off valve?

im not too sure if this is back preassure rather than unused boost i think. back pressure has to do with the exhaust and in that sense yes the exhaust is ran through the turbo but the pressure your talking of is going into the engine from the intake side not from the exhaust. back pressure is created from the exhaust side (not enough flow exiting the engine be it too small pipe or kinks/blocks in it restrictive muffler/cat ect.) definatly correct me if i am wrong on this cause i very well could be.

madmax this whole dang conv. went south on ya didnt it? sorry bout that.

[RickDLance]

I'll probably screw this up, but let me try...

The back pressure is the amount of exhaust pressure backed up in the up pipes and manifolds because of the amount of power needed to drive the turbo.

[James Hess]

wow i was way off then, first time dealing with turbos so i wasnt sure how off i was :lol: i spose i was on the right track if we were talking about natural asperation, so back to Josh's question would the blow off valve fix it? id think so, at least help.

[Kevin G]

The blow off is for the compressor side though, at least that's the way I am used to seeing. The wastegate is pretty much the blow off valve of the exhaust side to a certain point. Once the exhaust back press. or drive pressure gets to a certain point it opens and gets rid of the extra pressure. With a bigger turbo without the wastgate the surge and pressure is a lot worse, but putting a blowoff valve on the compressor side would be the best way to try to get rid of the biggest part of the surge, but putting something on the ex side you'd have to dump the extra exhaust gas in the engine compartment or run tubing down under the truck somehow. To much work for me, I'd go with a bigger ex housing or something.

[Diesel Tech]

The pressure in the exhaust prior to the turbo is called Drive pressure. Typically on any Turbo motor the Drive pressure will be more than the Boost pressure. In a Race application we strive to reduce drive pressure to the same as boost pressure or less if we can, but when you do you get a system that spools slowly. Back pressure is typically though of as the pressure in the exhaust after the turbo. Now as far as vibrations between a Gas motor and a Diesel they are very similar in the V8 configuration but inline motors are a whole new ball game. You need to build the same quality into a header for gas or diesel if you want it to live and use components that will stand up to the environment they are going to be used in.

[LarryJewell]

The pressure in the exhaust prior to the turbo is called Drive pressure. Typically on any Turbo motor the Drive pressure will be more than the Boost pressure. In a Race application we strive to reduce drive pressure to the same as boost pressure or less if we can, but when you do you get a system that spools slowly. Back pressure is typically though of as the pressure in the exhaust after the turbo. Now as far as vibrations between a Gas motor and a Diesel they are very similar in the V8 configuration but inline motors are a whole new ball game. You need to build the same quality into a header for gas or diesel if you want it to live and use components that will stand up to the environment they are going to be used in.

When you say reduce drive pressure to the same as boost pressure, are you referring to throughout acceleration thru all gears to at WOT in 5th gear? My drive pressure is running 2-1 compared to boost until I hit 5th gear then it balances out to right at 1-1 or 40psi boost = 42 psi DP +/-

[RickDLance]

I new I would mess that up.):h

[Nick]

Yours is a bit of a special case Larry. ;)

Variable vane turbos do not typically have 'ideal' turbine housings. However, they can accelerate a compressor wheel like mad, so we don't mind so much. Your 1-1 on top says you're in very good place.

I'd :) if I were seeing those numbers and that spool.

Nick

[LarryJewell]

I would be interested in what a stock VVT numbers would be ;)

[05smoker]

We're trying a little different approach on our puller. We decided to try a log-style header made from a little thicker stainless.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

Ed

[RickDLance]

Cool!!:)

[DMAX POWER]

We're trying a little different approach on our puller. We decided to try a log-style header made from a little thicker stainless.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

Ed
Those look nice hope they work good. Why did you go with a log style?

[James Hess]

My drive pressure is running 2-1 compared to boost until I hit 5th gear then it balances out to right at 1-1 or 40psi boost = 42 psi DP +/-


when you say 2-1 you mean boost is 40psi and dp is 84psi seeing as how in 5th it is setting at boost 40psi and dp 42psi? am i understanding this right? im not so sure cause that would seem to be alot to me, keep in mind i am not very familiar with forced induction. if i am reading wrong please explain.

[05smoker]

Those look nice hope they work good. Why did you go with a log style?

Wanted to try something different I guess. Plus we wanted the turbo out of the valley and we could easily run the logs forward.

Brent at Gene's Machine Shop was really pushing us to use them when he was working on our block. They use them on all their pulling tractor builds and they have worked great for their application. Since he is making about 4k hp, I'll take his advice.):h

My main concern is spool up right now.

[05smoker]

Cool!!:)

Thanks :thumb:

[RickDLance]

There are several people I know of playing with log manifolds right know. Many feel there is actually an advantage over tube headers.

[neversatisfied]

when you say 2-1 you mean boost is 40psi and dp is 84psi seeing as how in 5th it is setting at boost 40psi and dp 42psi? am i understanding this right? im not so sure cause that would seem to be alot to me, keep in mind i am not very familiar with forced induction. if i am reading wrong please explain.

Yes, 2:1 means your DP is twice the amount of your boost.

[neversatisfied]

We're trying a little different approach on our puller. We decided to try a log-style header made from a little thicker stainless.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

Ed

Are you running solid motor mounts?

[James Hess]

ok at least that is one thing i figured out right.):h

[LarryJewell]

when you say 2-1 you mean boost is 40psi and dp is 84psi seeing as how in 5th it is setting at boost 40psi and dp 42psi? am i understanding this right? im not so sure cause that would seem to be alot to me, keep in mind i am not very familiar with forced induction. if i am reading wrong please explain.

Its 2 - 1 early on in acceleration then starts leveling off as I hit 5th gear, I run at about 40psi boost +/- WOT. Here's the Dp and boost gauges if your interested, the far left is the DP gauge and is plumbed into the passenger exhaust manifold typically where you would locate the pyro. The middle is a boost pre-intercooler and the far right is boost post intercooler.

[blksmok]

Larry,
What IC are you running and how much drop do you see between pre and post?

[LarryJewell]

Stock intercooler, and approximately 2 - 3 psi difference between pre and post. I have considered changing to a bigger intercooler, and still might do it, just need some more money.

[LarryJewell]

drive pressure gauge plumbing and new uppipe.

[minisub]

Larry - what material is your tubing? Do you have another coil anywhere in the run? I suppose the one turn is enough for shock absorbing, but thought you wanted a few turns in there to help with heat. I assume you transition to plastic to go into the cab?

[Diesel Tech]

When you say reduce drive pressure to the same as boost pressure, are you referring to throughout acceleration thru all gears to at WOT in 5th gear? My drive pressure is running 2-1 compared to boost until I hit 5th gear then it balances out to right at 1-1 or 40psi boost = 42 psi DP +/-

I think you will find if you reduce the boost by opening the veins in the exhaust you will make more power. Being close to 1 to 1 on the top is good but if you drop a few pounds of boost see if the drive pressure will drop below boost pressure. Once you get into cross over as it's called you will see about 20 Hp pretty quickly. I just finished a test for a turbo manufacture and we gained 26 RwHp by going from 32 psi boost with 36 psi drive pressure to 30 psi boost and 28 psi drive pressure. This change was done by opening the veins just slightly more. We also gained about 30 deg. EGT but it is well worth the gain. I would shoot for no more than 1.5 to 1 at all times when setting up you truck in the driving range. What RPM are you turning to get the readings you've stated?

[Fingers]

Then again, you could adjust the Vane design to reduce the restriction when making the same boost.

;)

[LarryJewell]

Larry - what material is your tubing? Do you have another coil anywhere in the run? I suppose the one turn is enough for shock absorbing, but thought you wanted a few turns in there to help with heat. I assume you transition to plastic to go into the cab?

standard brake line, loop at the bottom and also loop at the top, connected to sending unit, then gauge.

[RickDLance]

I just hope you're not cussing me soon over that flex pipe!):h

[Josh2002cc]

standard brake line, loop at the bottom and also loop at the top, connected to sending unit, then gauge.


So I take it you used a electric boost guage then?

[LarryJewell]

I just hope you're not cussing me soon over that flex pipe!):h

Its holding up so far :thumb:

[justadmax]

even professionals tend to have faults it just depends on who the fingers pointing at in the end that matters. Just waitin to see who is gonna mass market the headers for the diesel industry. Hooker perhaps they have a nice design

[James Hess]

even professionals tend to have faults it just depends on who the fingers pointing at in the end that matters. Just waitin to see who is gonna mass market the headers for the diesel industry. Hooker perhaps they have a nice design

take a look at ricks headers :thumb: im pretty sure youd like em

[RickDLance]

James, I don't think he meant anything by that comment, and he's seen plenty of my work.;)

[James Hess]

no i figured he did not mean you about the work/problems, i was just letting him know to take a look at your cause i seen some bits of your work here and i like it. but spose he already has ):h.

[CDR]

I would agree spend your money in other areas first. I have only seen very small HP improvements from headers on turbo diesel applications...

[stacks04]

is the cost / benefit ratio based soley on hp? imo if it gave me 1 hp, but lowered temps and created less work for the turbo they would be worth money. more real world testing needs to be performed to see the money factor be justified.

[05smoker]

is the cost / benefit ratio based soley on hp? imo if it gave me 1 hp, but lowered temps and created less work for the turbo they would be worth money. more real world testing needs to be performed to see the money factor be justified.

I would agree. For someone that works there truck daily like Rick, the lowered EGTs when towing heavy I think would be the big selling point, not the hp increase.