Td-eoc

[Bulldogger]

Anyone running one of these? Turbo-diesel engine oil cooler.

[blksmok]

I don't run one, but I know people that have. What is your question?

[Bulldogger]

How are engine temps, oil temps, are they reduced, good investment for towing heavy. My Mikel tranny cooler worked awsome does this do the same for the engine. Do you think it can help reduce the risk of piston cracking??

[Mike L.]

An engine oill cooler is a good thing. Will it let your engine run cooler? Not really. Will it stop overheating as advertised? No; that can only be done by addressing the coolant issue such as larger radiator. Be carefull of the hype out there and don't spend money for nothing when you don't need to.

[blksmok]

I've heard that yes, it does reduce the engine temps, by reducing the oil temps. Good investment for towing heavy?? I don't know what they go for now, but I would opt for the V2 aux radiator. I have one and it's great. I know guys who previously had the TD-EOC and ended up doing away with it, and buying the V2 Aux rad. instead...

The problems I've heard from those that use the TD-EOC, is:
1. It does not solve the LLY OH condition in the most severe conditions.
2. Extra recurring costs. (every oil change will cost you more money)
3. No oil pressure for several seconds, (I've heard up to 30) after a oil change as the TD-EOC has to fill before the oil pressure comes up. (Anything longer than stock conditions is too long IMO.)
4. The ones that I have seen require you to cut up your front valance to get airflow to them.

[Bulldogger]

Blk,
you run the V2 how did you adapt it to fit with the Mike L cooler?? Has Chris made a kit for the 06 that is bolt in?? Thanks Dave

[blksmok]

The V2 will work in the LBZ trucks with one minor mod to a bracket. (you have to drill two new holes) The Mike L '06 cooler also has an issue with this same bracket. I have not installed my Mike L. cooler yet because of this conflict. It can be done and I know what I need to do, but haven't had time. I'll be making time very shortly though, because it's starting to get hot and I can already see, with the built trans, I'll need the additional trans cooler. I'll take pics of what is necessary, but I think just cutting this bracket to allow the trans cooler to sit where it was designed to go will be all.

[Bulldogger]

How long does the V2 mod take I leave in a few weeks and don't want to have to start screwing around making stuff or trying to get things to fit. Mike L cooler is already in place and is awsome so I won't consider moving that):h. I would like extra cooling whether I need it or not. The Forrest River XLR 39x12 was 15,600lb on the CAT scales empty.

[Mike L.]

How long does the V2 mod take I leave in a few weeks and don't want to have to start screwing around making stuff or trying to get things to fit. Mike L cooler is already in place and is awsome so I won't consider moving that):h. I would like extra cooling whether I need it or not. The Forrest River XLR 39x12 was 15,600lb on the CAT scales empty.

What year is your truck? There are no issues with '01/'05 trucks as far as my cooler. On the '06 the bottom plate on the V2 needs to be cut as it interferes with my cooler. Chris has one of my '06 coolers that he can use to modify his setup. It would not take much to fix.

[blksmok]

How long does it take to get? I don't know. I think it varies. You'd have to contact Chris over at coolmyduramax.
How long does it take to install? About 4 hours if I remember correctly. It's not hard, but time consuming. IIRC, the bracket in question, is the upper mount for the lower air dam. There are guys running without the air dam, (stealth mode) and doing just fine with the rad mod V2 and V2 Fan. I installed it because I tow a heavy, high drag trailer in tripple digit heat climbing serious grades. (worst possible combo) I don't know where you are, but you would probably be fine without the lower air dam, and then you wouldn't even need the bracket that causes the issue. Even if you decide to install the bracket, I think you just need to cut it to accomodate the Mike L. cooler...

Again, I haven't done it yet, but from what I remember when Mike L. tried to put it in for me, it looked like we would just have to cut the bracket.

[Bulldogger]

Mike I have an 06, thanks for the info.
Blk, thanks I already sent an e-mail to chris. If It's just cutting down a bracket thats fine, with the V2 mod how much did you drop ECT.

[blksmok]

You don't drop ECT per se, you keep them stable while towing. The diesel needs to run at a certain temp and the thermostats will ensure it does. When load increases, and ECT starts to rise, the additional cooling capacity keeps the ECT's in check nicely. Mostly without even the factory fan engaging. :thumb: When/if it does engage, it kicks on, cools right down, and kicks off quickly. Just like it should IMO. I rarely hear my engine fan anymore.

[swatkins]

All I can add to this discussion is an observation on oil temps... I have a Mike L tranny cooler , V2 with Fan, Tx's cold air intake and a Fan Damn system installed..

I also have a separate oil and water temp gauge installed. I monitor both all the time and my oil temps are usually around 30 degrees hotter than the temp of the water entering the main radiator..

The Duramax uses water to cool the oil already. Give that factory oil cooler, cooler water and the oil temps are not a problem... The V2 does that :)

[Mike L.]

I've heard that yes, it does reduce the engine temps, by reducing the oil temps. Good investment for towing heavy?? I don't know what they go for now, but I would opt for the V2 aux radiator. I have one and it's great. I know guys who previously had the TD-EOC and ended up doing away with it, and buying the V2 Aux rad. instead...

The problems I've heard from those that use the TD-EOC, is:
1. It does not solve the LLY OH condition in the most severe conditions.
2. Extra recurring costs. (every oil change will cost you more money)
3. No oil pressure for several seconds, (I've heard up to 30) after a oil change as the TD-EOC has to fill before the oil pressure comes up. (Anything longer than stock conditions is too long IMO.)
4. The ones that I have seen require you to cut up your front valance to get airflow to them.

I knew it would rob oil pressure on startup because of the way he tapped into the system. I also suspect that it continualy robs oil while it's running.
I would bet that that thing cost someone a motor or 2 down the line.

[blksmok]

The V2 will work in the LBZ trucks with one minor mod to a bracket. (you have to drill two new holes) The Mike L '06 cooler also has an issue with this same bracket. I have not installed my Mike L. cooler yet because of this conflict. It can be done and I know what I need to do, but haven't had time. I'll be making time very shortly though, because it's starting to get hot and I can already see, with the built trans, I'll need the additional trans cooler. I'll take pics of what is necessary, but I think just cutting this bracket to allow the trans cooler to sit where it was designed to go will be all.

I just came across this thread and thought I should provide an update. The V2 and Mike L. trans cooler CAN coexist on the LBZ. You can read about it here (http://dmaxcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=542&highlight=mike).

[Turbotug]

I knew it would rob oil pressure on startup because of the way he tapped into the system. I also suspect that it continualy robs oil while it's running.
I would bet that that thing cost someone a motor or 2 down the line.


FWIW, the TD-EOC works great on my truck!

30+psi of oil pressure at operating temps at idle. 60+ off idle.. Even towing HEAVY.

Approx 30k miles and mine is still running fine.

Better engine temps, oil and coolant.

Easier towing.

Nice insurance for a turbo that is ONLY oil cooled!

[Killerbee]

An engine oill cooler is a good thing. Will it let your engine run cooler? Not really. Will it stop overheating as advertised? No; that can only be done by addressing the coolant issue such as larger radiator. Be carefull of the hype out there and don't spend money for nothing when you don't need to.

LLY overheating is not a coolant (nor a cooling system) issue.

Seems whenever this comes up, everyone like to forget that an oil cooler, is a cooler of oil. Of course it cools the motor.

[blksmok]

LLY overheating is not a coolant (nor a cooling system) issue.
Seems whenever this comes up, everyone like to forget that an oil cooler, is a cooler of oil. Of course it cools the motor.

Welcome Micheal. :Handshake:
(for any of you that don't know, Micheal is the man behind the TD-EOC)

I'll respectfully disagree with the statement I highlighted above.


Enjoy the site!

[Killerbee]

No problem.

Is there a rational argument to go with this broad stroke?

Please explain how the cooling system of LB7 (non-overheaters) is different than the cooling system of the LLY (overheaters), and why this is a cooling system issue. If you can, please do it without refering to how ECT (a symptom) has been managed using band-aids. Simply explain why the cooling system of the LLY needs to be changed in some way, or how excess heat ends up in the cooling LLY cooling system, source of heat, etc..

[blksmok]

No problem.

Is there a rational argument to go with this broad stroke?

Please explain how the cooling system of LB7 (non-overheaters) is different than the cooling system of the LLY (overheaters), and why this is a cooling system issue. If you can, please do it without refering to how ECT (a symptom) has been managed using band-aids. Simply explain why the cooling system of the LLY needs to be changed in some way, or how excess heat ends up in the cooling LLY cooling system, source of heat, etc..

Micheal,
Sure we could cover this again for the umpteenth time (Yes it really has been answered and re-answered THAT many times) but why?
By telling you the same things that you've been told before and know already am I going to change your mind? Are you just waiting to be told ONE MORE TIME before you believe it?

I don't know every possible thing that might be different between the LB7 cooling system and the LLY. Maybe one of them has a few more radiator fins. It matters not. What ever the differences, they aren't enough. Why would you compare one radiator to the other when the ENGINE IS DIFFERENT? The LLY has additional heat sources that the COOLING SYSTEM has to deal with. The cooling system on the LLY DOES NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to shed the heat the engine and peripherals can produce. That is evident in the OH condition.

How is this a cooling issue? A better question would by how is this a lubrication issue. Yes that's right, everyone else realizes that the primary job of the cooling system is to cool the engine and the primary job of the oil system is lubrication. Somewhere you seem to have missed that.

Here's what it comes down to (and I've said this to you before) The engine is going to produce heat. It’s a byproduct that must be dealt with. That’s where the engines cooling system comes in. That’s the whole and entire reason that every car, truck, or van, has a radiator. The heat must be shed. Sure, if you produce less heat, then less heat must be shed, but that’s not the way you engineer something. You design the engine to put out a certain amount of power, and you design things like the cooling system to deal with what the engine puts out in the way of heat. You don’t design a cooling system and say, “it’s good, now let’s adjust everything else to work with it.” If the cooling system doesn’t do it’s job, which is to cool the engine, then you add extra cooling capacity to the system. It really is that simple. You keep saying that the cooling system works well and I don’t debate that… The cooling system in my wife’s G35 works well too, but it’s not big enough for my truck. The same is true here. Yes the cooling system is good and works well, but the problem is, it does not have the capacity necessary to stop the engine from heating up when at, or near, max load. PERIOD.

You want proof of this. The proof is the V2. All it does is add extra cooling capacity to the radiator. When this is done, the truck ceases to overheat. That is an obvious indication that the stock radiator does not have sufficient cooling capacity. It really is that simple.

Here is the difference between you and most others. You want to know every possible source of the heat. The majority of us wants to know how to keep the truck from overheating. I know you will say, how can you have one without the other, but you can. I don't care why the LLY runs hotter than the LB7. It does and so we have to deal with it. I only want to know how to keep it from overheating when towing heavy/large sail area trailers, up serious grades in high ambient air temps. The answer is to add more cooling capacity to the inadequate cooling system.

[Killerbee]

I am not pointing anyone toward lubrication to address overheating. The td-eoc is just the title of this thread, I am not discussing it at the moment, because hot oil isn't the cause either...hot oil is ALSO a symptom, just like hot coolant.

Beyond this, I don't see any factual data that says that an LLY produces more engine heat. And I'll save you the trouble. It factually doesn't. I spent enough time on it to know. The duramax internal heat transfer properties are unchanged since 01. Yet, the LLY suffers more.

You can't answer why that is, with a coolings system explanation, because not even one fin is different.

Is this going to be an informative thread, or more BS? I have zero interest in screaming at walls. If you want to be the V2 sales manager, I could really care less. I am completely unsympathetic in your patchwork solution, to a problem that originates elsewhere, far removed from the cooling system...for the umpteenth time.

[Turbotug]

So, my LB7 doesn't heat up when towing heavy, but a completely stock LLY does. My LB7 also has electric fans installed with approximately 30% less air drawn though the stack than normal.


Why does one boil over and the other is perfectly fine with a good margin less capacity? Good question. Many have attempted to answer it.


I'll bet the answer isn't in the "cooling" system...


edit: Micheal you are up way past your bed time!

[James Hess]

Personally just to start of i want to say i dont want to see this thread go to a yelling match from something that started elsewhere but to more or less be a discussion of why the LLY overheats in a certian situation compared to any other design so that others may know(this statement is not a personal shot at anyone but just a statement). Its not that the LLY heats up when towing and others do not its just that a different situation applys here.

The LLY doesnt produce more heat over any other engine block and has the same cooling system as any other as well, the difference comes into play where the LLY has a coolant cooled turbo(compared to others with the oil cooled only someone correct me if i am wrong) along with other things that are coolant cooled compared to the other designs/layouts. The engine doesnt produce more "engine heat" over any other but it does have extra things added in to the mix to the system that adds heat if that makes any sense.

So to go with that statement the cooling "system" which is the same as all the other trucks never got an increase in cooling capacity to deal with the extra parts it had to cool. Thats where the extra heat from an LLY comes from, its not the block or "engine" per se that does it its the other little things added in that the cooling system has to try and cool and it just cant handle all of the "extra stuff" along with the normal cooling duties.

This is where the V2 comes in it adds the "extra cooling capacity" to handle all the extra little parts.

I hope that kind of cleared it up a little, again someone correct me if i am wrong.

[Turbotug]

The LB7 turbo is water cooled as well.

[James Hess]

The LB7 turbo is water cooled as well.

I can honestly say i did not know that, does anyone have an actual spec sheet saying what the cooling system from each design actually has to cool? I Would like to see that just so this discussion would have more of a basis than just one person saying something opposite what someone else is saying.

I would like to bring up the fact that the LLY suffers from low oil pressure(not to rebuke what i just said or to contradict it either) but could this also play into the situation of the LLY's problem? I know that the pressure comes up when you start to go down the road but is it enough?

Could this be just another situation to add to the cooling issue?

[Fingers]

The LLYs DO dump more BTUs to the engine and thus the cooling system.

The question has always been WHY?

The primary Culprit? The VVT turbo. More specifically, the excessive drive pressures.

You have two choices: change the turbo or increase your cooling capacity. Right now, increasing the cooling capacity is cheaper, but there are some interesting VVT replacement options becoming available. Especially if you are going to crank up the HP.

But, as always, what do I know.

[James Hess]

But, as always, what do I know.

Who knows ):h



j/k

[blksmok]

Micheal,
Thanks for coming out today. It was good to meet you and put a face to a name.

Believe it or not, I understand what you are saying and I'm not arguing that the coolant heating up is a symptom. I understand your thermal feedback loop thesis too. I'm trying to break this down simply for you and others to explain my position. You are much more involved with this than I am, as I have bought a LBZ (added the V2 I bought for my LLY to add aditional cooling to the system) and have forgot some of the finer details of the LLY issue that I used to know like the back of my hand. It doesn't matter to me any more.

With that said, I can only break it down like this:
1. Q. What is the primary job of the coolant system?
A. To keep the engine temps in line during all conditions for which it was designed to operate.

2. Q. Does the LLY cooling system perform it's job as described above?
A. NO

3. Q. Does adding additional capacity to the cooling system allow the system to then perform it's job as described in #1?
A. Yes

I know that I'm not covering all the why's, but I don't really care at this point. If there is 1 thing I can do with proven success to keep the truck from overheating, or 6 things I can do without proven success that I've seen, I'll do the 1.

Where we differ is what we are calling the "problem". The problem I was looking to solve was "How do I keep my truck from overheating?" Adding cooling capacity is the answer, it's been proven. Your question is "Why is the truck overheating?" And you believe you've found your answers. I'm not doubting your work, I'm just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from.

I'm no salesman for the V2 BTW, but if I find something that works and others are asking how to fix a problem for which I've found a solution I'm happy with, I'm glad to tell them.

As another example of the above, I wanted to lower my trans temps while towing. Maybe I should have taken on the task of finding all the things within the transmission that were heat generators and tried to alleviate them one by one, but instead I bought a larger trans cooler. It's just a choice and it really is that simple.

[Killerbee]

The LLYs DO dump more BTUs to the engine and thus the cooling system.

The question has always been WHY?

The primary Culprit? The VVT turbo. More specifically, the excessive drive pressures.

You have two choices: change the turbo or increase your cooling capacity. Right now, increasing the cooling capacity is cheaper, but there are some interesting VVT replacement options becoming available. Especially if you are going to crank up the HP.

But, as always, what do I know.

we agree that the induction method is culpable.
we don't agree on which side of the shaft is to blame.

But that argument is years old now. ):h

[Killerbee]

Wish I could have stayed longer Dave. Looks like a fun group.

FWIW, even the transmission gets cooler with the induction system improvements. (let me hear it ML :h ) The idea of patchworking 6 things...is in reverse a bit. Fixing one thing has aided several others. Once a source is identified and fixed there is a domino effect of benefits.

What we should do is just put the question to the test on the beeline. That tow contest idea. It's not hard to wire up the test. Seeing is believing, one of the probes goes in the airspace between the CAC and radiator. When you see this temp over 260 degrees (hot side) it starts to become more clear...then when it lowers to 200 with restriction removal...lightbulb starts to come on.